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CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Yahoo Message Number: 31748
I have a C12 in my Magna. I just spoke with CAT and they said that I can have my engine upgraded to 455 HP with just a software change.
Also, they said now I have 1550 lbs. torque in only 5th and 6th gears (1450 in all the others) and after upgrade it will be 1550 in all gears. I do not know how much they charge for this. Has anyone had this done? How did you like it? Did it affect economy?

Rich

2002 Magna 6148

CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31779

rich_barlow@... intrepid008 : I have a C12 in my Magna. I just spoke with CAT and they said that I can have my engine upgraded to 455 HP with just a software change.
Also, they said now I have 1550 lbs. torque in only 5th and 6th gears (1450 in all the others) and after upgrade it will be 1550 in all gears. I do not know how much they charge for this. Has anyone had this done? How did you like it? Did it affect economy? Rich

2002 Magna 6148
Jas:

I just went through an experience with Cummins on this going from a 525 to a 600 software upgrade. I called Cummins and then I got the phone # to the closest Cummins service center. I called them and asked them how much and they said $300 for the software and $200 more if they has to do a password install... most motorhomes do not have passwords on the engine blocks so they said $300. So for what it is worth I would assume the CAT is the same as Cummins. But I had to call local Cummins service center for software install price...

CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31782
Rich,

455 HP is 7% more. That won't get you up a hill 5% sooner.
1550 is Increased HP is at full R/M. Increased torque is only at lower R/M than you can use it.
I can never get my full rated torque due to Allison shifting to keep higher R/M at full throttle.
Rule is you can't feel less than 10% change. Caterpillar web has document with name like UNDERSTANDING RV PERFORMANCE that explains what changes in power & weight you must have to get an appreciable change in hill performance.
Cat HP changes used to cost near $800. The reduced torque in lower gears & increased torque with cruise control engaged is an owner selectable option, not a paid power increase package. Options for engine programming are posted on Cat highway engine web.
You might also find the information in files section of this list or the yahoo catrvclub list.

Eric Lee Elliott
5 Inspire 51321

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I have a C12 in my Magna. I just spoke with CAT and they said that I can have my engine upgraded to 455 HP with just a software change.
Also, they said now I have 1550 lbs. torque in only 5th and 6th gears (1450 in all the others) and after upgrade it will be 1550 in all gears. I do not know how much they charge for this. Has anyone had this done? How did you like it? Did it affect economy?

Rich

2002 Magna 6148

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31784
Have you both thought about contacting Allison to see what you are going to have to do to get the tranny to handle these upgrades?
TWI 2004 Intrigue 11731.

CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31795
Eric,

As far as the minimal increases I get it. But I am not sure I understand part of what you are saying about owner selectable. Let me explain how this question arose: I was having my retarder reprogrammed to latch and turning on the auto retard in cruise by a CAT dealer. These are owner selectable. They gave me a full printout of the configuration from the computer. Under description, it said "rated peak torque--1450 ft. lbs @1200 RPM". Knowing that my engine is rated at 1550 ft lbs., I called CAT. The guy explained that your engine is a "dual torque" with 1425 at gears 1-4 and 1550 in gears 5-6. He mentioned the upgrade to 455 hp which he said gives you 1550 in all gears. I do not see anywhere in the owner selectable configuration where these settings can be changed. Nor do I see anything about reduced torque in cruise. Where are these settings in the config?
By the way, I am waiting to hear from the dealer what the cost will be for the new flash.

Rich

2002 Magna 6148

CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31802
I have the C-12 in my Magna and it is 505HP and it response great, they have even tweeked it for milage, now around 8mpg. Make sure they take you off soft cruise and put you on hard cruise this works better in the hilll's, because there is no lag time in shifting down no loss of power or speed.

Al 6213

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31828
Rich,

CAt publication on RV performance is in https://ohe.cat.com/cda/files/287140/7/LEGT5364.pdf. There are levels of parameters for adjustment by driver, shop, vehicle builder & Cat.
Flashing is authorized Cat dealer level only. What you saw on screen in Cat shop was parameters set at all 4 levels. You could also have seen shop & driver settings that you could have chosen & set then & there including: Idle R/M

cruise control hard or soft

cruise control minimum & maximum speeds engine braking engagement modes (already changed) part throttle shift speeds

These & about 20 more items are driver & shop set parameters.
Many engines have ability to not allow full power or torque, unless cruise is engaged, this is intended to keep drivers out of trouble & reduce operating costs.
Many engines have ability to not allow full power or torque, except in higher gears to avoid damage to tires, frame & transmissions. Apparently CC set Cat for reduced torque to protect Allison or avoid wheel spin in some situations. I would not want reduced torque in third gear in any situation.
Both of these limitations should be shop settings, usually set free while computer is monitoring engine for some other work to be done. Allison Corp. might not approve increased torque in lower gears & Cat engine ECM will tell Allison transmission controller what torque is while engine runs. If you choose full torque in first & second gears, you should already know probable consequences.
If I could find the list of parameters now, I would post it to you. I have seen all on Cat shop computer repeatedly.

Eric,

********************************** As far as the minimal increases I get it. But I am not sure I understand part of what you are saying about owner selectable. Let me explain how this question arose: I was having my retarder reprogrammed to latch and turning on the auto retard in cruise by a CAT dealer. These are owner selectable. They gave me a full printout of the configuration from the computer. Under description, it said "rated peak torque--1450 ft. lbs @1200 RPM". Knowing that my engine is rated at 1550 ft lbs., I called CAT. The guy explained that your engine is a "dual torque" with 1425 at gears 1-4 and 1550 in gears 5-6. He mentioned the upgrade to 455 hp which he said gives you 1550 in all gears. I do not see anywhere in the owner selectable configuration where these settings can be changed. Nor do I see anything about reduced torque in cruise. Where are these settings in the config?
By the way, I am waiting to hear from the dealer what the cost will be for the new flash.

Rich

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31833
Eric, you wrote " Apparently CC set Cat for reduced torque to protect Allison or avoid wheel spin in some situations. I would not want reduced torque in third gear in any situation. Both of these limitations should be shop settings, usually set free while computer is monitoring engine for some other work to be done. Allison Corp. might not approve increased torque in lower gears.." So once again, exactly what "shop setting" parameter increases the torque in gears 1- 4?

As far as the Allison goes, I would check this out first, but I have a 4000 which I can't imagine would have a problem handling this minimal increase.

Quote from: Eric Lee Elliott\[br\
] >

Rich,

CAt publication on RV performance is in
https://ohe.cat.com/cda/files/287140/7/LEGT5364.pdf.
Quote
There are levels of parameters for adjustment by driver, shop,
vehicle builder & Cat.

Quote
Flashing is authorized Cat dealer level only. What you saw on
screen in Cat shop was parameters set at all 4 levels. You could also have seen shop & driver settings that you could have chosen & set then & there including:

Quote
Idle R/M

cruise control hard or soft

cruise control minimum & maximum speeds > engine braking engagement modes (already changed) > part throttle shift speeds

These & about 20 more items are driver & shop set parameters.
> Many engines have ability to not allow full power or torque, unless
cruise is engaged, this is intended to keep drivers out of trouble & reduce operating costs.

Quote
Many engines have ability to not allow full power or torque, > except in higher gears to avoid damage to tires, frame &
transmissions. Apparently CC set Cat for reduced torque to protect Allison or avoid wheel spin in some situations. I would not want reduced torque in third gear in any situation.

Quote
>

Both of these limitations should be shop settings, usually set free
while computer is monitoring engine for some other work to be done.
Allison Corp. might not approve increased torque in lower gears & Cat engine ECM will tell Allison transmission controller what torque is while engine runs. If you choose full torque in first & second gears, you should already know probable consequences.
Quote
If I could find the list of parameters now, I would post it to
you. I have seen all on Cat shop computer repeatedly.

Quote
Eric,

********************************** > As far as the minimal increases I get it. But I am not sure I
understand part of what you are saying about owner selectable. Let me explain how this question arose: I was having my retarder reprogrammed to latch and turning on the auto retard in cruise by a CAT dealer. These are owner selectable. They gave me a full printout of the configuration from the computer. Under description, it said "rated peak torque--1450 ft. lbs @1200 RPM". Knowing that my engine is rated at 1550 ft lbs., I called CAT. The guy explained that your engine is a "dual torque" with 1425 at gears 1-4 and 1550 in gears 5-6. He mentioned the upgrade to 455 hp which he said gives you 1550 in all gears. I do not see anywhere in the owner selectable configuration where these settings can be changed. Nor do I see anything about reduced torque in cruise. Where are these settings in the config?

Quote
>

By the way, I am waiting to hear from the dealer what the cost will
be for the new flash.

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31884
Quote
455 HP is 7% more. That won't get you up a hill 5% sooner.
1550 is
If you review your basic Physics, you will see that the above statement is wrong. By *definition*, an increase in HP of 7% will do work 7% faster.
Tom Fisher EE
Dallas, TX

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31891
Tom......

1 horsepower is defined a the power required to move 1 lb one foot in one minute... or any combination of that as long as it equals that... 1/2 pound 1 foot in 30 seconds etx, etc...

2 pounds 6" in one minute etc etc etc

If you review your basic Physics, you will see that the above statement is wrong. By *definition*, an increase in HP of 7% will do work 7% faster.
Tom Fisher EE
Dallas, TX

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31892
I believe that the '1 foot' distance is against gravity. So to lift that pound takes 1 HP, but you can move it 100 miles at the same height and that is considered to be 0 HP. The formula ignores friction, wind resistance and inertia, which unfortunately, are significant with our coaches :-)

John 04 Inspire 51078

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31894
You are correct, I should have said lift not move, but the rest is still true. It is still true about the combination of the three, so it is not strictly speed related.....Any of the three can vary as long as the outcome is the same a 1 1 1 ... any of the 3 can be influenced.. so it can be speed related, time related, or distance related....

Mike

I believe that the '1 foot' distance is against gravity. So to lift that pound takes 1 HP, but you can move it 100 miles at the same height and that is considered to be 0 HP. The formula ignores friction, wind resistance and inertia, which unfortunately, are significant with our coaches :-)

John 04 Inspire 51078

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31895
Yes, but isn't the software upgrade merely an increase in fuel to the engine? Which reduces MPG and increases engine heat.

Quote from: intrepid008

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31896
Didn't you read the link in Fred's post??! 1HP is equal to lifting 33,000 pounds 1 foot in 1 minute.......NOT 1 pound.

Dave Trotter

'01 Intrigue #11215

Re: CAT 425 C12 HP upgrade

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 31900
7% more power does not do a hill 7% faster. Caterpillar's "Understanding Coach/RV Performance" explains it well. https://ohe.cat.com/cda/files/287140/7/LEGT5364.pdf. See page 6 or page 7, both show that X% more is not X% faster. That is true on level ground also.
If the math is too tough, you could try riding a bike at 4, 8 & 16 miles per hour. 16 is way more than twice the effort of 8 miles per hour just due to air resistance. Other factors make doubled speed take much more than doubled power.

Eric Lee Elliott